Bringing Atheism & Secular Ethics Debate to Halifax: Haligonians Offer Warm Support, Cold Reception and Everything in Between
Advertising, Campaign Updates, Events, Poll, Press February 26th, 2009
I feel caught up in a whirlwind. The last 2 days in Halifax has involved tons of presentations, interviews and meetings – and little by way of sleep.
Arriving in the city as Tuesday was dawning, I immediately headed for my hotel to put some finishing touches on (alright, to get started on) my remarks for the Silent Rally for Free Speech that was planned for noon outside city hall.
Before making it to the rally Derek Rodgers (Halifax spokesperson and organizer with the Dalhousie Atheist Community) and I had a rather long (and equally annoying) appearance on Maritime Morning with Andrew Krystal. This was without a doubt the most surreal radio experience I’ve had. Derek and I were put through an intense defense of the campaign by Mr. Krystal, but after an hour of that I still can’t pinpoint where he stands on the issue. Clearly he thinks it’s odd we’d be promoting our atheistic position. He mentioned more then a few times that if you believe in no God, you would have no reason to be an activist. And he was convinced that Christians – not atheists – were marginalized in this country (I think he must be a devotee of Michael Coren).
But more then anything else, it would appear his show simply thrives on controversy and yelling matches and that is what he wanted to spark. He was quite happy to be able to get one supportive caller and one angry caller to square off against each other. Great radio, if not terribly conducive to a productive dialogue. This was the first time I was on a radio show to which a significant majority of callers offered strong criticism of our campaign, reaffirming for me how important the choice of Halifax was. Some were just insulting, calling Derek and I “young men” who must be in our “early thirties.” I won’t divulge any ages but let’s just say that’s still some way off for me and significantly off for Derek.
One woman called in to defend a previous caller, insisting we had been rude to her. When we defended ourselves she said, “well you’re irritating me” and promptly hung up on us. Towards the end I recall being asked what my parents thought of this campaign and whether they were offended by what we were doing. That one threw both Derek and I off at first. But it was indicative of the general tone, which fluctuated between criticism of our disrespect and disrespect for our criticism. Here’s the full audio for your enjoyment/irritation.
Although Metro Transit in Halifax banned the ads on buses, the Rally itself was unopposed and went very smoothly, despite being so close to the offices of some very strong politicians and detractors.
The event was covered by 16 media outlets (at least that’s how many microphones were shoved in my face). In fact, the ratio of media to protesters was 1:1. As we were preparing, one reporter called me over to inquire, referring to the bible, as to whether we had purposefully planned to have precisely 12 individuals holding posters. Thankfully, a few more people promptly showed up. The modest turn out was unavoidable given the tight timeline we had to work within and the weather of the day. Nevertheless, we were able to get every protester – with the exception of Derek and I – behind a big banner bearing our slogan, with their mouths taped shut. A placard was held up behind the slogan:
This is What Metro Transit is Protecting You From
Not more then five hours later, the story was already reported on CBC.ca – Protesters Cry Censorship in Atheist Bus Ad. Other media soon followed, including a front page story in The Chronicle Herald with a large picture at the top with our banner. Some other reports included: Athiests bring duct-taped disappointment to city hall (which mispelled Atheists but managed to get my name right) and Rally for atheist bus ads
Long desiring a Free Speech Rally, ever since the inauguration of the Centre for Inquiry’s Campaign for Free Expression, this was one of the proudest moments of my life.
I had very little time to soak it all in though, as I was rushed back to my hotel to prepare for the evening’s talk. This was a short speech building on the situation with the ad campaign but going much further and discussing censorship and attacks on free expression at local, national and international levels in many areas. A transcript of the full speech – Local, National and International Threats to our Fundamental Freedom – is available here. The talk rolled nicely into an organizing meeting for the Dalhousie Atheist Community. I would encourage any on or off campus supporters to get in touch with this very well run and ambitious organization. They have some great activities planned. Sylvia Browne beware.
Back at my hotel that evening, I quickly got to work to prepare for my debate – Can We Be Good Without God, hosted by the Canadian Centre for Ethics in Public Affairs – scheduled for Wednesday evening. I emerged from my hotel room only once over the course of the next 20 hours. That was a pre-debate debate at the CBC (just down the road from where I was staying) and an excellent opportunity to plug the evening’s event as well as for I and my fellow debater Eric Beresford, President of Atlantic School of Theology to meet and learn a little about each other.
The exchange was quite productive and amicable and it set me at ease that the evening would be the same. One question for which I really had no good answer was, to paraphrase, what yardstick to you use to judge right actions? Busy reading everything on philosophy and science that touched on ethics, I wasn’t ready for this practical question regarding my own personal decision making. Thankfully both Dr. Beresford and I quickly agreed the question was just not amenable to an easy answer. After all, most philosophers if they agree on anything in ethics, it’s that there is no such a thing as an objective all purpose yardstick for such judgments on individual actions.
It was a real pleasure engaging with Dr. Beresford, who was kind enough to take me on a short tour of downtown Halifax, pointing out some locations he recommended I visit while in town. His organization – the Atlantic School of Theology – had submitted an Editorial supporting the atheist bus campaign. Another religious ally.
The debate that evening was composed and measured. I fear it may have been too low key for our organizers, who understandably were hoping for more disagreement. There were of course a few key areas where we had some seemingly fundamental dispute.
One example is whether individualism or community identity was supreme. We each insisted on the importance of both, but my argument was that any ethical system ought to be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable members and if group rights were protected at the expense of those within the group – and here I’m referring mostly to children – who have little choice and opportunity to leave, then that is problematic. An emphasis on individual and universal human rights must reign supreme.
We also argued but then came to a consensus of sorts on the universality of science to approach questions outside its usual sphere, such as love and ethics. The last point I made to that issue was that while science might be the best method we’ve developed to understand really anything and everything, love and ethics (through its evolutionary underpinnings) included, that to implement that knowledge, such as in building loving relationships and building actual ethical systems, that here science is not appropriate.
A defense of the scientific method was also given. Carl Sagan was invoked to explain science’s built in tension between acceptance for consideration of all new ideas and, paradoxically, great skepticism of novelty. By lying between those extremes, it is hard to conceive of anything like fundamentalist science.
Hard to believe I’ve only been in Halifax for 2 days. Today time will finally be dedicated to visiting the city itself which until now has been but a backdrop on all these activities. But a city that has given rise to such controversy and in which I’ve met such interesting individuals – supportive or otherwise – is one I’m happy to have some time to explore.
One question to leave you with. Can anyone tell me why Halifax citizens refer to themselves as Haligonians? No one here seems to know.





February 26th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Sounds like you are working hard Justin!
As for personal ethics, I recommend “The Atheists Way:living well without gods” I am about halfway through and it seems pretty descent, a bit vague but couldn’t hurt to read.
One thing to remember about morality is that little clip TVO showed of Richard Dawkins saying that thank goodness we DON’T get our morality from the bible, if that was all that was behind our morals/ethics we would all still be stoning homosexuals. If you pick and choose parts from the bible, on what grounds do you decide? Obviously not on the bible.
February 26th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Re: “Haligonian”
This link doesn’t really explain it so much as offer the etymology. Presumably Halifax, NS just adopted it from the English.
Good to hear my alma mater’s treated you well so far, Justin. Keep fighting the good fight.
February 26th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
In my opinion the reason the topic is controversial comes down to morality. It is also what gives us atheists a reason to campaign for our ways. Freedom of speech is not the whole deal.
First everyone has to accept that it is difficult to reach a perfect moral systems. But that doesn’t mean all morals systems are equal.
As with anything that is thought out and reasoned instead of blindly followed, atheist’s reason based morality is far superior to that of religionists. As atheists, it is perfectly reasonable to promote our reason based values in order to make a better world.
In the forum, I suggested for a slogan :
“There is a right and a wrong in the universe, and the distinction between the two is not that difficult to make.”
-Elliot Maggin
Source: Superman: Last Son of Krypton, Warner Books, 1978
I think this simple statement answers a lot of concerns religionists have about atheists.
What we are saying is that a reason and common sense based moral system with the goal of making everybody better off is clearly superior to a moral system based on old texts with unknown origins and unrefined traditions that don’t really apply anymore in todays world.
For many of todays religions, the more you follow their sacred texts literally, the more you are immoral judged by a common sense morality.
To put it more plainly: Religionists are morally inferior. Maybe I wouldn’t put that on a banner but it is certainly a valid point.
The fact that religions makes no sense whatsoever is my personal reason for not believing it. The fact that it tends to make people immoral is my reason fo promoting a better way.
Not that all religious people are immoral. Some think for themselves and don’t follow their traditions blindly. They reinterpret it to make more sense in today’s world. But why not go all they way and rethink the whole philosophy? That way you won’t end up supporting a doctrine that clearly leads some groups to discrimination, homophobia, sexism, violence and general immorality.
I think atheists should not put too much emphasis on human rights. It is hard to interpret and in many case it doesn’t make logical sense. We have a right to life you say? I could die of a car accident tomorrow. Should we ban all cars? It doesn’t answer questions like what do you do when there isn’t enough resources to keep everyone alive, well and within their “rights”. Plus human rights are associated with heavy handed government policies which arguably can end up making people worst off and will turn off a lot of people.
Maybe it would be better to put the accent on human freedoms.
I find that a rule of thumb for determining what is moral between two alternatives is to imagine two worlds. In the first world people commonly follow the first alternative and in the other world the second alternative is followed. Then the question becomes which world would you like to be born in not knowing what kind of human you will end up being?
IMO The other important component of the atheist movement is the heaven and hell nature of the world itself. I like the top banner of this site which is a nice example of finding beauty and inspiration in the natural instead of the supernatural. There is no need to make up other worlds. I think Dawkins has written much on that subject.
February 26th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Justin,
Thanks for that summary and all the links. I’d say it looks like the CFI and this campaign have a very effective and respectable spokesman. Keep up the great job!
February 26th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Justin can you please expand on what you mean by saying “included, that to implement that knowledge, such as in building loving relationships and building actual ethical systems, that here science is not appropriate.”?
How can you say that science is not appropriate in building loving relationships and especially building ethical systems? You said so yourself that science is learning and building an understanding of anything and everything. For that very reason science should be applied to building of ethical systems. We should learn everything we can about an ethical system before “building it” hence why scientific inquiry might be needed to understand ethics first.
Same with building loving relationships, there is a science to that as well. If we could learn what are the key components of building loving relationships, which can we done through scientific observation, then we might be able to understand the best approach to building a loving relationship.
Maybe you just weren’t clear in what you said or maybe I misunderstood so I would appreciate it if you could clarify your position and put me to ease.
February 26th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
The morning show with Andrew Krystal was frustrating. Andrew kept interrupting as Justin and Derek tried to explain their positions. Obviously the guy likes the sound of his own voice more than any man should. He really doesn’t get the “free speech” issue, does he? Nor does he understand the importance of separation of church and state.
The rude caller who felt compelled to tell Justin and Derek how rude and aggressive they were with a previous caller is ripe for a comeback such as “takes one to know one”. Honestly, the combined IQ of those two disgruntled women is likely only half of Justin’s IQ alone.
I had to laugh out loud when Diane responded, “No, I won’t!” to the other caller, Andrew, when he asked politely for her to “Think about it.”
My computer froze up when the program was 31 minutes in so I have to still listen to the rest, but I hope at least one woman with some intelligence calls in. I’m really feeling like a minority in a minority.
February 26th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
After listening to the rest of the morning show I am glad the last half received more calls from people supporting freedom of expression.
I do agree with the last caller about the ads being presumptuous and not strictly atheist. However, this is not necessarily a bad thing because it gets atheists and agnostics discussing ideas around how atheism effects people’s lives too.
Like any muscle in the body, if we don’t exercise our right to freedom of expression we will likely lose it. The only time bigotry is visible in society is when people are confronted with the unfamiliar or objectionable. A community of racists only shows its bigotry when a black family tries to move into town. We have to constantly test society and how well our rights and freedoms are surviving.
Kudos to Justin and Derek on doing a great job!
February 26th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
Today, Larry Moran at http://sandwalk.blogspot.com/ posted two articles on his blog in support of the Canadian Atheist Bus Campaign.
February 26th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
Yea that interview is just grating…before you guys could respond he jumps to his next point…and who the heck is “Bill”? I swear he called someone bill a few times?
well i don’t have time to finish this now…
February 26th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
What a frustrating interview. I wouldn’t have lasted past the first 5 minutes after Andrew said “oh please”. I would have stood up and walked out right then haha. Good for you guys for having the patience and calm for being able to continue.
I’m going to buy a shirt now
February 27th, 2009 at 12:18 am
I’m coming from the God side here…I grew up in a secular home, I started going to church when I was 15 yrs old. Didn’t believe in God when I went, wasn’t “searching” for God…my crush went to church, therefore so did I. That being said, I found God. I wasn’t looking but I found. I try to explain to people how it happened but it’s hard because it sounds nuts. All I can say is it was like someone turned on the light, it was sudden and quick, and breath taking. However I believe in what you’re doing. Religion has had a firm grip on people’s fears for centuries and it’s time that some of those individuals became more free in thinking. Just be careful because it’s a slippery slope. If you tell people they are not “free thinkers” or they don’t “enjoy their life” because they believe in a God, than you’re just as bad as the religious folks preaching God or hell. Being a “free thinker” is believing that everyone has a right to their beliefs and do not try to impose theirs on others. Free thinking is giving the people the info and saying you make what you will of it. My Sunday school teacher taught us that.
I am slightly offended by the ad I will admit and here’s why. “Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”. It’s arrogant to assume that because people believe in God they don’t enjoy themselves. I bloody well love my life. I’m young, single and living in Toronto. Life is good. And I believe in God. Go figure huh?
Nobody, not even science has proven God isn’t real, and nobody, not even the pope has proved that She is.
All the best on your campaign and good luck with the “believers”, I won’t call them fanatics but religion has always been and will always be a very touchy subject.
God speed.
February 27th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
You guys should read the latest “Scientific American”
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=was-einstein-wrong-about-relativity
“To ask after the position of a single particle would be as meaningless as, say, asking after the marital status of the number five. The problem is not epistemological (about what we know) but ontological (about what is)
…..entanglement also appears to entail the deeply spooky and radically counterintuitive phenomenon called nonlocality—the possibility of physically affecting something without touching it or touching any series of entities reaching from here to there. Nonlocality implies that a fist in Des Moines can break a nose in Dallas without affecting any other physical thing (not a molecule of air, not an electron in a wire, not a twinkle of light) anywhere in the heartland.”
“Physicists say that particles related in this fashion are quantum mechanically entangled with one another. The entangled property need not be location: Two particles might spin in opposite ways, yet with neither one definitely spinning clockwise. Or exactly one of the particles might be excited, but neither is definitely the excited one. Entanglement may connect particles irrespective of where they are, what they are and what forces they may exert on one another—in principle, they could perfectly well be an electron and a neutron on opposite sides of the galaxy. Thus, entanglement makes for a kind of intimacy amid matter previously undreamt of.”
February 27th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Free Thinker,
I appreciate your comments about living happily in your beliefs. My former belief in God gave me similar feelings, but eventually I discovered evidence that made my belief untenable.
I agree with you about the ad making wild assumptions, but I wasn’t asked to write it. I’m sure you’re enjoying your life. Continue thinking freely and eventually you’re likely to discover some evidence that might make you change your opinion about God.
February 27th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Sorry, Freethinker!
Sorry, Freethinker, but I cannot let you get away with this statement: “Nobody, not even science has proven God isn’t real, and nobody, not even the pope has proved that She is.”
It doesn’t work like that. Human reasoning and the accumulation of knowledge don’t work like that. He who asserts must prove. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Science cannot and does not have to prove that God isn’t real. Science cannot and does not have to prove that the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot aren’t real.
Those making the claim that something is real are the ones who have to prove it. Otherwise, the normal default position is that their claim out not to be leieved until evidence has been produced. This is how ALL scientific and human reasoning works.
The claim by UFO and Bigfoot buffs that “Absence of Proof is not Proof of Absence” makes a cute bumper sticker, but it is NOT a logical way to reason. Absence of proof regarding startling claims such as Nessie, Bigfoot or God, is a reason for logical human beings to WITHOLD belief. We atheists leave the door open. That is why we say “probably”.
The door has been open for 2000 years now, and no solid evidence has come in. So here is another bumper sticker for you. “Consistent absence of proof makes you wonder about the validity of the claim.”
February 27th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
How about a demo in Ottawa?
Ottawa Councillor Alex Cullen, who believes in freedom of speech, tried to challenge the decision of OC Transpo rejecting our ads before the Transportation Committee , but it ended in a 3-3 tie and did not pass. I understand Ottawa City Council will consider the matter on March 11? Is that still correct? Why not organize a demo at City Hall? It is right downtown on Elgin Street, and I for one would be happy to attend.
February 27th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Hi Freethinker,
I really loved the tone of your comment. It was respectful, yet when you had something to say, you said it with the appropriate emphasis.
I just wanted to clarify the meaning behind the part of the campaign slogan that you had a problem with. I think it has been pointed out a number of times that “Now stop worrying and enjoy your life” is meant to tell people that don’t believe in God that their non-belief is perfectly okay. They should not worry about the absence of a deity, and they can still enjoy life.
It may come as a surprise to believers that non-believers can also enjoy their lives. I hope that makes sense.
February 27th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Michel re: Ottawa,
I’ll be there.
February 27th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Gabriel, thanks for posting the sciam link. Enjoyed that. Very encouraging!
“We may, in fact, see the universe through a glass not quite so darkly as has too long been insisted.”
February 27th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Gabriel: Thank you for your support, but in point of fact I don’t know if any demo is planned. I am really asking if one is in the works.
February 27th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
“How about a demo in Ottawa?”
100% behind that, I live in durham region, I got a vw passat diesel, so I could drive 4 other people from the area.
I get mondays, and tuesdays off a and I can call in sick if I have to! And I am sickened by the discrimination of this.
Maybe they would let us run ads for when the protest is to protest not letting us run the original ads?
Such BS they ignore their rulebook until they come across an ad they don’t like then they pull it out to try to back up their prior decision. They have let religious ads run before right? And their rules clearly state no religious ads without dates? And atheism is not a religion, it is the lack of a one.
February 28th, 2009 at 7:43 am
Devon – you can pick me up on your way to Ottawa ?
I’ll be standing on the edge of the 416 on Monday March 2nd at 6:00 am
wearing a red toque near the exit to Merrickville/Kemptville. I’ll have my signs painted so you can’t miss me.
February 28th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
This statement has always bugged me. Definition of “extraordinary” is unusual or exceptional. So unusual claims require unusual proof. What is an “unusual” proof? Could mean proof outside the purview of science or even logic. “Extraordinary” is too wide open.
February 28th, 2009 at 9:02 am
Slynda,
I think that if you are looking for unusual or extraordinary proof you have it in the latest Scientific American article.
“Nonlocality implies that a fist in Des Moines can break a nose in Dallas without affecting any other physical thing (not a molecule of air, not an electron in a wire, not a twinkle of light) anywhere in the heartland.”
I’ll punch you in the nose if you like. (but I believe in non-violence)
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=was-einstein-wrong-about-relativity
I could choose the winning lottery numbers for you ?
February 28th, 2009 at 9:35 am
“Devon – you can pick me up on your way to Ottawa ?”
…
I think your pantheism would drive me insane before we got there…;)
February 28th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Who said anything about pantheism ?
We would talk Pure Science.
March 1st, 2009 at 12:44 am
For those in the Ottawa area, please check out our petition and other information at atheistbusottawa.info
March 2nd, 2009 at 7:29 pm
“One question to leave you with. Can anyone tell me why Halifax citizens refer to themselves as Haligonians? No one here seems to know.”
Wish I could tell ya. My boyfriend is from Halifax and even he can’t tell me. He thinks it’s totally normal, but can’t tell me why. And he thinks “Vancouverite” is the weirder word… *rolls eyes*