United Church of Canada to come out with counter ads.
Discussion, Press January 30th, 2009*Update* Go have your say in their Yes/No poll!
Leave it to the United Church of Canada to come out and counter our ads. I think this is a really exciting new development. They’re hoping their ads have the same effect as ours – to spring up discussion in the public. I’ve been a member of their site wonder cafe for many years now because it’s proven time and again to be a really great place to have this exact discussion (and many others) with believers who have an open mind. I’m just hoping they don’t pour too much money into their campaign making our ads way more obscure than theirs.
Although, the discussion surrounding the ad on their website is way ….below…what I’ve found their usual conversation to be, I expected the people there to actually talk about it instead of just saying it is a silly and useless comment. I’d love to hear their intelligent thoughts surrounding the message instead of them just assuming that we’re attacking them.
With silly comments like “there’s probably no science” and “why aren’t they attacking Muslims” it’s very easy to brush the entire thread off as more people who aren’t interested in opening their mind up to new ideas and actually talking to us about the meat of the issues. However, there are a couple people on there going against that statement. Such as…
Kappa
I’m with those who see this as an opening for discussion. To me the sign is not funny so much as it is a statement, “Hey, look, we really DO live in a country that supports free speech, if the exercise does not take away the fundamental rights of others.”
Posted on: 01/21/2009 15:50
Alas – Good on you, UCC!
January 30th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
yeah, the only bad thing would be if they flood the TTC with ads…which I’m sure they could do. But if they attempt to match our number that would be amazing.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
With no evidence or logical reason to support their claim that the probably is a God, they have no method of intelligent discussion.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
They are more than welcome to increase the visibility of our campaign.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
I agree, Darwin. The problem with discussing logically with a theist is that they are not basing their beliefs on any logic to begin with. This is called “Faith” and it is one of the cleverest inventions of religion. Normally, a person who believes weird and funny things for which there is no evidence would be a fool or a madman. But instead, religion invented a “virtue” called “Faith”. All of a sudden, believing without any evidence, and the refusal to use our naturally skeptical minds and our reason, ceases to be a fault and becomes a virtue. As soon as someone challnges your weird ideas, you lower your eyes and say reverently: “It is a matter of Faith”, and PRESTO, the atheist who questions you is a boor and a villian for having crossed the line and attacked your Faith. They are even using the magic immunity inherent in the word “Faith” to try to block our bus ads, by claiming that they attack their “Faith”.
January 30th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I agree, Josh. Controversy like this is the life-blood of our campaign. Just to give you an example: I had NO IDEA that the bus campaign even existed until yesterday morning when I read the article in the Globe and Mail, quite by accident, entitled ‘Toronto Church Leader Denounces Atheist “attack ads”‘. If our dear “Dr.(???!!)” Charles McVety of the Canada Family Action Coalition had not sounded off to the papers, I would not have been clued in by the article. I immediately went to this site and donated $100 and I intend to make similar donations over the coming months.
I showed the article to an atheist friend of mine and he has also made a contribution.
And that is just the story of one person who happened to see the article over coffee and a bagel.
All of this because, ironically “Dr.” McVety attacked our right to free speech. If I were a theist, I would say that McVety’s god works in strange and mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
I think the UCC ad should read:
There probably is a god, now *START* worrying!
January 30th, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Darwin you haven’t done your homework. There are a lot of intelligent people with very logical reasons for believing in a God and some very scientific evidence to back it up. You just have to take the time to listen to there arguments. In the same respect there are alot of very intelligent people with very logical reasons for not believing in a God.
The thing that I find silly about the term free thinking is that it isn’t really “free” since you prescribe to a certain ideal (which is that god does not exist). Free thinking to me would suggest that people are free to believe in a god, gods, or no god and we’re all cool with that.
Also I wish the author of this post would learn to spell… What the hell is a moselm? It’s muslim.
Peace.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
I’m so glad this organizaiton is not seeing the UCC response as an attack. It’s a dialogue, and if both play the media well, hopefully a good dialogue.
I haven’t been through the whole WonderCafe thread that started when the ads we announced. The quality of the discussion is not controlled by the UCC. The site is very open, and topics attract who they may.
I’ve been a member of the Wondercafe community since inception. It’s interesting that it tends to be the religious right that has the hardest time keeping the discussion going well. The UCC folks spend more time debating their twisting of the bible than worrying about the exsistance of God.
So feel free to check out that site.
You may also find this article that talks about the UCC ad plans. I hope we can work together to increase transit ad penetration. We aren’t the Vatican though, cash is tight on the UCC side too!
http://www.marketingmag.ca/english/news/marketer/article.jsp?content=20090129_172342_50860
I am a UCC supporter but am serve in no official capacity with the Emerging Spirit / Wondercafe program. My wishes are just that, I have no power on policy.
January 30th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
THE ADS ARE NOT ANTI-CHRISTIAN
One ploy being used by the pro-censorship people is that we would not take out ads that say “There probably is no Allah” so therefore we are allegedly “attacking” Christian belief. First, disagreeing and contradicting is not attacking. And secondly, “Allah” is just the Arabic word for “God”. Christian Arabs, when they speak Arabic, use “Allah”. Similarly, there is no reason to suppose that “God” is an exclusaively Christian term. Ghandi used the term for his supreme Hindu diety when he spoke English. When Muslims and Jews speak English, they often say “God”. “Dieu” is not the Catholic word for “God”. It is the French word. French Protestants, Jews and Muslims use the word “Dieu” all the time. If our campaign goes to Montreal and Quebec City, it will use the words “Dieu” in French ads.
So let’s cut the crap. “God” is not an exclusively Christian word. We use the word in our ads because they are English-language ads.
January 30th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I suspect the UCC will catch a lot of flak if they use the word “probably”. I could respect them for using it but it does imply some doubt. This may bite them on the butt (“ye of little faith”).
January 30th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
To Matt #7, the mispelling of muslim was in a quote…
January 30th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I don’t think the UCC is afraid of a little flak. If you check out the Wondercafe ad series you will see ads that are much more controversial. I like the Bible with the sicky tabs out the side. Half say “Agree” and the other “Disagree”
The UCC is not one to shy away from tough questions, and follow what we see is the true message of Christ (be he the son of God or not). That message is much less worry some, and much more about living free of burden, than the message put forth by many Christian groups.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Matt,
“Darwin you haven’t done your homework. There are a lot of intelligent people with very logical reasons for believing in a God and some very scientific evidence to back it up. You just have to take the time to listen to there arguments. In the same respect there are alot of very intelligent people with very logical reasons for not believing in a God.”
I would love to see some logical reasons and scientific evidence for a god. It would be a first for me (and not through lack of seeking, btw).
“The thing that I find silly about the term free thinking is that it isn’t really “free” since you prescribe to a certain ideal (which is that god does not exist). Free thinking to me would suggest that people are free to believe in a god, gods, or no god and we’re all cool with that.”
I’ve never met a free thinker who objects to other people believing what ever they want. We just insist that you have to have more than uncorroborated claims if you want anybody else to believe, support or act on your assertions.
“Also I wish the author of this post would learn to spell… What the hell is a moselm? It’s muslim.”
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone (there, their, they’re).
“Peace.”
Upon you, too.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
I agree with Steve. If there “probably is a god”, and he is who the UCC say he is, many people are pretty much screwed in the (probable) afterlife. The probable existence of God *would* be cause for worrying. Thankfully, all signs point to the bible being a remarkable assembly of fictional stories. Whew. Dodged a bullet there.
January 30th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
You guys might be interested to know a similiar campaign has now started in Brazil.
Translated article here:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/01/sou_feliz_sem_crer_em_nenhum_d.php#more
Some of their slogans are really, really good. Especially “Smile! Hell doesn’t exist.”
-Bogans
January 30th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I am proof that God exists. And so are you.
I am God and so are You. Look within. You all have the ability to become God. We all come from God and we will all go back to God. If God does not exist then you return to non-existence. Everybody happy now?
Let’s take this money and all the money we give to all the churches and feed the poor. Set the down trodden free. And go tell everyone the news that the Kingdom of God has Come.
He sent me to give the good news to the poor
Tell prisoners that they are prisoners no more
Tell blind people that they can see,
And set the downtrodden free
And go tell everyone
The news that the kingdom of God has come
January 30th, 2009 at 9:14 pm
I agree with Michel, arguing or even having a discussion with a christian or whoever is pointless.
They base their reasoning or “faith” which is an illusion in itself and instead of using their reason, they come up with “excuses” to defend the faith or illusion they have been sucked into
January 30th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
If UCC wants to use “There’s probably a God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life,” the words revisionist, derivative, and copyright infringement come to mind.
I believe it was Oscar Wilde who said that “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.”
Is UCC really THAT concerned about the ads that they feel an essential need to reply? It seems to show that they do not have great confidence in their beliefs.
January 30th, 2009 at 9:56 pm
Personally, I think this is a good opportunity to think about diversifying the ads. They should probably be of more than one flavour, both in form and content. If they get lost in “the other” message, it would seem to me that the campaign has been somewhat hobbled. Despite the talk of dialogue, I would think that outcome would not be unwelcome by the Church.
I’d strongly urge diversifying the content and the appearance of the ads that will run.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Trevor, I am a bit concerned about copyright, but I assume that has been checked out.
Imitation is a form of flattery. The UCC thinks this kind of discussion is good! The Wondercafe site has been running ads for the same purpose for the last two years. We are essentially pooling our ad dollars for a common goal. Both this site and Wondercafe link to each other now.
The UCC action is not a reply out of concern. It is a welcome to a website where these questions are regularly discussed. You speak of confidence in beliefs. The UCC has many more questions than answers and we are confident we will be enriched by discussing them.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Oh yah. And it was the United Church magazine The Observer that sponsored the Darwin exhibit at the ROM when no one else would go near it with a ten foot pole for fear of offending creationists.
The UCC has no problem taking on biblical literalism.
January 30th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Can you prove there is no life on the Moon?
It is not up to atheists to prove that God does not exist. It is up to those who allege that he does exist to prove it.
This is the basic rule of evidence on which all knowledge, scientific progress and indeed our very sanity rest. If the opposite rule applied, we would be compelled to believe anything anyone claims until we could disprove it. And if someone claimed there was an invisible dragon in their house who cannot be seen, touched or photographed, you would be compelled to believe him unless you could prove the dragon does not exist.
The trouble is that atheists (myself included) too often respond with funny examples like “Neither can you prove that there are no Leprechauns in Ireland.” or the “flying teapot” example of Bertrand Russell.
So allow me to present you a much more realistic example. I and most scientists declare that there probably is no life on the Moon. Now, I cannot prove that, unless I have sifted every grain of dust and cracked open every rock on Earth’s satellite. We know there is ice under the Moon’s south pole. Maybe someday we will find a microbe there that uses that water and that is living. So therefore I leave the door open a crack by saying “probably”. I keep an open mind. But an open mind is not an open sewer. It is a mind willing to follow evidence impartially. He who alleges something must present that evidence. Until I have seen some proof that life exists, I look at the Moon, and I observe how dry, airless and inhospitable to life it is, I look at the fact that Apollo missions found no trace of anything living, and I say with confidence that there probably is no life on the Moon.
Now then, if you tell me there IS life on the Moon, I will listen with respect and then ask you what evidence you have to prove it. Until you show me some good evidence, I remain in my original default position.
This is the closest and most realistic example I can think of to illustrate why theists must prove that God exists, and that atheists do not have to prove that God does not exist.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:03 am
Tom – nothing to do with faith. It has to do with knowledge and logic. Sorry. I have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists right here right now.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:16 am
Offgrid Living: May I please see that proof beyond reasonable doubt of which you speak?
January 31st, 2009 at 12:26 am
I exist. Therefore I AM. I am that I am. The problem with God is that everybody is looking outside themselves, when He is right there. He is you. The divine spark that fired that 1st synapse in your brain is the spark of God. Do you know where that 1st spark came from ? If you do – go ahead create a human being. Create your own soul. Let’s see. That will prove to me that there is no God. That there is no need for a God. You create that 1st divine spark. And I will believe you.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:32 am
“The divine spark that fired that 1st synapse in your brain is the spark of God.”
What evidence do you have of that? Are you a neurologist?
Create my own soul? That does not make sense.
You seem to be saying that the existence of human consciousness and the fact that I cannot replicate a human being must lead one to the conclusion that there exists an invisible being who did. I am sorry, but that is not what scientists call evidence. It is what we call a rant.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:38 am
Let me see you create that 1st synapse, that 1st spark out of nothing. And I will believe you when you say that there is no God.
January 31st, 2009 at 12:42 am
Michel, Fortunately the best proof of the existence of God is you yourself. If you deny your own nature, there is nothing anybody can do or say to convince you otherwise.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:04 am
Sorry, Offgrid, but that does not make sense. I have not denied my own existence.
Let’s start with what we DO agree with.
We seem to agree that my brain and yours work with synapses that “fire” kind of like spark plugs. Neurologists (in other words, Science) know that much about how our brains work. There are a lot of other things we know, such as the role of chemicals in the brain, etc. But you are right that we cannot (at present) replicate a human brain, nor fully understand what human consciousness is. But that does not “prove” the existence of a God. You cannot make that leap of logic. There will always be millions of things science does not yet fully understand. But you can’t just jump from that fact to saying that you have proven God exists.
What you are proposing is the “God of the Gaps”. As soon as we do not know how something works, theists like you jump in and say “That proves God exists”.
In fact, Isaac Newton said something very similar. People in his day could not understand how it was that all the planets rotate around the Sun on the same plane, like a giant plate. Newton then assumed that this was proof of a divine hand at work.
But guess what? Science has since shown how such an arrangement of all the planets on the same plane is very possible and could easily have occurred using the laws of physics, many of them laws discovered by Newton himself. So now, theists no longer use that as “proof” of a God.
That is the problem with your “God of the Gaps”. You have to keep retreating as science slowly explains one thing after another. Nobody today believes that the gods hurl down lightning. But there was a time when everyone did.
Finally, you have to stop using this concept that I have to prove that God does NOT exist. Please read what I wrote above about whether we can prove there is no life on the Moon.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:06 am
My favorite theology story.
After the first lecture of the term a student approaches his religious studies professor and says “Just so you know, I don’t believe in God. If you are going to fail me for saying that in my papers let me know now so I can drop the course.”
The professor replies “Tell me about this God you don’t believe in, because I doubt I believe in him either.”
I think Off-grid and Michel are having this debate without realizing it. God is many things to many people. Some are to be feared as they wreck havoc on humanity, others are to be held up as ideals of human potential. Know which to rally against.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:20 am
Blondin Says: “There are a lot of intelligent people with very logical reasons for believing in a God and some very scientific evidence to back it up.”
That’s one of the most hilarious claims I’ve seen in years. It’s also bollocks. And the claim that to belief in god rather contradicts their supposed ‘intelligence’.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:37 am
Congrats to the UCC if it’s discussion on the probability God is sincere and open. This show of openness gives me hope that the McVety’s of this world are a strict minority.
Offgrid…there’s a real tasty discussion on spiritualism on the facebook page…Although the new agers are getting eaten alive, some of the volleys are quite revealing and address some of the views and values you appear to espouse.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:49 am
I checked out the UCC site and the discussion around their campaign is pretty cool. They’ve even put up a poll (although non-scientific) asking us to vote for our preferred campaign (atheist or UCC). So far, the atheist bus campaign is in the lead…but as I said, non-scientific.
Some also appear to be worried about copyright infringement, by the fact that their advertisement is so similar to ours…but I don’t think they should worry…I mean, to go after them for infringement would be completely against the principles of this campaign.
Finally, I see one very big advantage to this. The UCC has now nullified McVety’s complaint. In one brilliant move, the UCC have legitimized our campaign, opened the door to meaningful dialogue and marginalized the evangelicals. Absolutely brilliant and once again, congratulations to the UCC.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:52 am
Bassic: That story sounds like something made up by a professor at a university trying to kiss-ass with the theist head of the Philosophy Department.
The problem with your story is that it assumes a foolish young student who had rejected only some immature conception of God that he may have learned from an idiotic Sunday-school teacher and that any thinking person would reject.
It assumes that the kindly professor would reject that God as well, but knows of a much more believable God that the student will come to know and worship thanks to the kindly professor.
In other words, your story is condescending and patronizing.
What if the young man said: “The God I don’t believe in is any God whose existence has not been proven, and that one can believe in only by using an alleged virtue called Faith which is actually a rejection of our human heritage of rational thought.”
Would the kindly profesor have said that he also did not believe in such a God? If so, then the Prof would have effectively been an atheist. In which case, one wonders why the student came to him with his question in the first place.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:02 am
I do not believe that God is something separate from me. As I said. I am God. And so are you. I do not need science to prove this. God is science. The Essence of divinity is found in every single thing – nothing but it exists. Since it causes every thing to be, no thing can live by anything else. You cannot say “This is a stone and not God” All existence is God, and the stone is a thing pervaded by divinity. Nothing is devoid of its divinity. Everything is within it; it is within everything and outside of everything. There is nothing but it. Be aware that God fashioned everything and is within everything. There is nothing else.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:12 am
I do not subscribe to the “God of the gaps” or “God spots” or anything else that has been discussed in relation to finding God in a specific part of the brain. You can not find God by looking for him. You will never find him. If you do not know that you are God yourself, you will never know him. You are all the proof you will ever get. And I am not talking about faith. I am talking about knowledge. I believe in seeking knowledge. I thirst after it. Teach me what you know.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:15 am
Would someone just answer Offgrid and tell him to stop voting for his own posts…
January 31st, 2009 at 2:22 am
Simon Gardner: I feel the need to defend my friend Blondin by countering possible misconceptions…He did not say what is quoted…Matt did, and Blondin did a great job in calling BS.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:24 am
I vote that God disable the Rating buttons. Go ahead Richard. We are all Gods here.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:26 am
All I can teach you at present is this, Offgrid. Making a bunch of assertions is not the same as preseting evidence.
There was a time when most people thought like you. They looked at the Ginseng root, for example, and said “It looks like a human body so it must be good for the human body, because it contains the essences of life and health.” But nobody had done any scientific research or found any evidence other than the fact that Ginseng root happens to look like a human body.
“All existence is God?” What does that mean? Are you saying that “God” is just another word for the material universe? If so, why invent a new word? We have the words “material universe” that are perfectly useful to describe reality.
If you are saying that God is some kind of essence that pervades the material universe with some kind of power, then I would like to know what evidence you have for the existence of this (presumably invisible) power? Otherwise I must classify your assertions along with the curative powers of Ginseng Root and the magical powers of the Great Pyramid, and other new-age nonsense.
I respect your RIGHT to believe what you want, but do not ask me to respect the beliefs themselves when you spout unproven nonsense. As H.L. Mencken said : “We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” If you want to believe God is in a stone, go ahead, but that is about all the respect I can sum up for your beliefs if you have no proof of what you allege.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:49 am
No. God is immaterial. No-thingness. As is my soul, or spirit which is in fact a type of energy and electricity that emanates. An electricity and energy that emanates and permeates and flows through all things. And Evolution is in fact a proof. Evolution follows a path of ascent. Everything evolves and ascends. In evolution divinity is illuminated in perfect clarity. God generates, actualizes potential infinity. God is electrons, God is atoms, God is in all things. He emanates from all. Moses and Tesla experienced God. Jesus was God, who became man and became God through his evolution. You Michel are also becoming God. But you are also already God. You are learning, you are evolving. Your spark is firing. You have a pulse.
January 31st, 2009 at 2:56 am
Okay, Offgrid, enough is enough. Either you are on something, in which case I would recommend a detox and treatment centre, or else you are pulling my leg and having fun with me, in which case I have better things to do. If you don’t know the difference between scientific reasoning and logic and spitting out a bunch of new-age clichés like a machine-gun, I’m afraid there is no point to our discussion.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:07 am
Ok – Thank God the bus strike is over eh ! I mean thank Rona.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:44 am
and Offgrid…Evolution does not follow a path of ascent.
‘Modification through descent.’
Come back anytime though…it’s been fun.
January 31st, 2009 at 4:38 am
I would respond better to off-grids “arguements”, but from what I can tell it is mostly incoherent, contradictory, gibberish.
I can make out that off-grid (who is quite obviously not offgrid because they are using a computer…) seems to be saying that his definition of god is a human being…and than that god made everything….flips back and forth, I really find it hard to decipher….
Anyways I can create a human being, that first synapse…but it requires two people
January 31st, 2009 at 5:14 am
What I find surprising about your campaign is not the head line “there probably is no God,” but actually the tag line: “So stop worrying and get on with your lives.” Is it the Atheist perception that people experience and practise spirituality because they worry that, if they didn’t, they’d be punished? That isn’t even remotely what I’ve seen in the friends and acquaintences and historic figures I know who are religious. I think, for instance, of Tolstoy and C.S. Lewis and William James and Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and really have to ask you if you envision them as simple-minded worry-warts who secretly wanted to have a good time but couldn’t get past the neurotic fear that they’d get a cosmic spanking. You champion logic, and yet your assessment of what spurs people to faith isn’t logical at all, I’m afraid.
January 31st, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Offgrid-Living, time sell your copy of Heinlein’s ‘Stranger in a Strange Land’ and steal your regurgitated pap from some other source.
‘Thou art god’ indeed.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Patricia: The origin of this ad was to counter another ad made by a christian organization. Their ad claimed eternal fire and punishment to sinners.
Honestly though, the message could have been tailored in such a way that it was correct from whatever standpoint you took, but “There’s probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your lives. Though that’s not to say some of you don’t already enjoy your lives, but our target isn’t necessarily you speciffically” doesn’t really have the same ring, does it? Homogenizing the message to be absolutely technically correct diminishes the impact.
Not every group is claiming hellfire and punishment, but that’s not to say others don’t. However, if the religion includes any concept of hell, then there is always a threat looming in the minds of those who practice it. Do good(the way we interpret it) or suffer.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Our Father, who art in heaven, Howard be thy name.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:15 pm
I find it interesting that rather than dialogue some here respond with: to be a theist is non rational. Good start – rather than responding I suggest Charles Hartshorne’s book Omnipotence and other theological mistakes. it is “oh I don’t believe in the god you don’t believe in, here is another empirical, rational, logical argument” This is how a dialogue is done – asking the metaphysical questions first.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Patricia, funny you should mention C.S. Lewis. One of the religious books that influenced me the most when I was a gullible and practising Christian (Roman Catholic) teen was precisely by C.S. Lewis, namely, “The Screwtape Letters”. As you will recall, it is an account of letters from a senior to a junior devil about how to tempt people. Now I realize that Lewis never pretended these letters were real. But he was quite in earnest that invisible devils are out to tempt us so that we can go to Hell where they will consume and torture us eternally.
I read this book while I was in what Catholics call a “closed retreat” where you stay in residence and get preached at for three or four days. Since we were all horny teenaged boys, the priest preaching the retreat made a point of telling us about the horrors of Hell for those who do not obey the sexual rules of the Church and save themselves for marriage. I remember him telling us about being called out to an accident where two young people had been killed at the moment they were screwing in the back seat, and about how their souls were now in Hell for all eternity.
To make things worse, I was aware that I was gay. So that meant I must spend my entire life sexless, without even solitary sex, or go to Hell.
Do you know how impossible it is for the average, heathy teenaged boy never to “touch himself impurely”? Religion is a guilt-machine meant to frighten and destabilize poeple to render them obedient.
It took me YEARS of psychoanalysis to rid myself of the internalized homophobia, to learn to love myself and stop worrying about this non-existent God roasting my fag ass in his torture chamber.
Perhaps if I had seen an ad like the proposed bus ads, I might have emerged from the nightmare of religion into the light and freedom of atheism sooner and more easily. If there is another kid like I was be out there who can be spared years of suffering by these ads, the money I have been donating to the atheist bus campaign will be worth it.
Every cent I give, I give in memory of the harmless, innocent kid I was who was terrorized and traumitized by religion.
January 31st, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Religion is not based on fear and worry? According to Christian Doctrine, God runs the largest, most elaborate, most ghastly torture chamber in all creation. People are punished there with horrible, never-ending pain for all eternity (even though their misdeeds, however bad, were of finite duration).
Now please, don’t bother splitting hairs with me that God does not run Hell, Satan does. That is like the Inquisition saying that they never burnt anyone, they merely turned them over to the secular arm and allowed them to do so. Satan and Hell are part of God’s creation, and he allows them to exist, so can the technical crap.
BTW, does it not strike you as odd the while civilized nations are struggling to end torture on Earth, and while this anti-torture movement is often spearheaded by majoritively atheist and secular countries in western Europe, torture continues to be used by the God-fearing USA, by Muslim countries, and by God himself, who created the ultimate place of torture?
January 31st, 2009 at 3:57 pm
You know, Patricia makes a good point. Many religious people are not worried about damnation, or motivated by fear. Mystics of many different religious traditions have found a “happy place” (that’s meant to be flippant and funny, so don’t tear me apart
) were they are in touch with the highest level of consciousness (whether you perceive that as involving God or not). This is a noble pursuit I believe.
Michel, you are correct in your criticism of my professor story. I am not here to battle evil atheists, or to prove God exists. Your motivation I presume (I’m sorry to have to make this speculation) is to improve society by removing the irrationality of religion. Mine is to encourage dialog and reduce intolerance in society. We are working towards a similar end, yours is just further along than mine.
As Richard points out above the UCC joining the campaign is a vote against the religious right. Be glad for the support even if it comes from friends who are not entirely rational.
January 31st, 2009 at 4:10 pm
> Bassic said: The UCC action is …a welcome to a website where these questions are regularly discussed. You speak of confidence in beliefs. The UCC has many more questions than answers and we are confident we will be enriched by discussing them.
Given the lack of proof of any god, 3-O (omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent) or otherwise, there seems to me to be little point in any ‘discussion’ of the concept of a god (even though I’m doing that, here, since the topic has been raised). I refer you to Stenger’s excellent “The God Hypothesis” for a very complete, scientific demolition of all the arguments for any type of god, in which he shows conclusively that the probability of any type of god existing is vanishingly small. Any court would throw out arguments for god(s) on that basis alone. A reasonable juror would not, on the balance of the evidence before them, accept that the mooted god(s) exist(s), since the arguments against are so much more compelling.
My post was simply to note the apparently knee-jerk response by UCC. If it had confidence in its god, there would be no need nor desire to ‘respond’ to the current bus campaign. As, one by one, science debunks the tenets of organised religion and individual beliefs in god(s), the believing seem to find and cling to more and more desperate rationalisations (like “discussion is a good thing”) to explain (or justify) why the thinking and believing parts of their brains have trouble talking to each other. Maybe it’s a bit like the brain hemispheres in the depressed not talking to each other, until antidepressants are used (NO, I’m not saying believers are depressed, I’m saying there seems to be a strange mechanism in the brain where belief seems to be able to trump rational thought that is founded upon evidence. I don’t know what that mechanism/wall is, but it seems, as in depression, to exist. Otherwise, I’m at a loss as to why otherwise rational people think irrationally on this matter).
>And it was the United Church magazine The Observer that sponsored the Darwin exhibit at the ROM when no one else would go near it with a ten foot pole for fear of offending creationists.
THAT, I respect.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Michel – you are living with much hatred – and you have explained this hatred with much passion. I do not believe in a church that treats humans this way. So I reject all churches.
“There is probably no God, so stop worrying and enjoy Life.” You should try this then. Maybe it will help.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:05 pm
Here is my belief. “Into the vacuum Ein Sof (The Infinite) emanated a ray of light, channeled through vessels. At first, everything went smoothly; but as the emanation proceeded, some of the vessels could not withstand the power of the light, and they shattered. Most of the light returned to its infinite source, but the rest fell as sparks, along with the shards of the vessels. Eventually, these sparks became trapped in material existence. The human task is to liberate, or raise, these sparks, to restore them to divinity. This process of tiqqun (repair or mending) is accomplished through living a life of holiness. All human actions either promote or impede tiqqun, thus hastening or delaying the arrival of the Messiah. In a sense, the Messiah is fashioned by our ethical and spiritual activity. Luria’s teaching resonates with one of Franz Kafka’s paradoxical sayings: “The Messiah will come only when he is no longer necessary; he will come only on the day after his arrival.” The messiah comes when you discover him. So don’t worry and enjoy life.
January 31st, 2009 at 6:30 pm
As I have tried to explain. You are that messiah. You are that God realized or unrealized. Kinetic and Potential energy. God is not in charge of heaven or hell. You are. You live in a hell or a heaven of your own making. I said “You are gods. You are all Sons of the Most High.” But you will die like mere men; Psalms 82:6, John 10:34
Michel – believe it or not, you are divine. You are that same God that you are denying.
Jesus tried to express this and was crucified for it. To the leaders of that church, it was Blasphemy. But it is the Truth. Jesus lived with prostitutes and Tax collectors and died with thieves. The Church today would crucify him all over again. “On that day you will realize that I am in the Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.”
January 31st, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Offgrid, I am getting tired of reading your Bullshit.
Please go away!
January 31st, 2009 at 9:15 pm
“You are that messiah. You are that God realized or unrealized.”
No, no, no, I am the eggman. I am the walrus. Kookoocajoo.
January 31st, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Tulse: Exactly. Finally someone here understands.
January 31st, 2009 at 11:19 pm
Offgrid says ” Jesus lived with prostitutes and Tax collectors and died with thieves” Now really stop worrying and enjoy your life!
January 31st, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Michel, I just re-read some of the thread, and I am sorry I missed your post about your teenage experience. I may not be rational (associating with the UCC and all), but stories like that incense me. I hope you can understand that we at the UCC have no place for hate like that.
Shalom, Bassic
February 1st, 2009 at 2:31 am
lol, offgrid tulse was just quoting you!!! He wasn’t agreeing lmao
You are just too much fun, what with your definition of god being an offshoot of apes know as homo sapiens.
I really don’t think that most people consider the definition of god to be homo sapiens. You should really clarify what you think a god is, before people assume you mean an omnipotent being who created the universe.
February 1st, 2009 at 3:24 pm
The ads are purposeless. This is only going to get people fighting. There is no point to these ads but to create conterversy, do you really think we need more of that? If we were supposed to live our lives however we please than there are going to be alot more pregnant single mothers, more std’s, and more AIDS. Our world will just become focused on living for ourselves instead of helping each other.
February 1st, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Bassic, I have to admit in all fairness that the UCC is NOT like that. My partner of 33 years (we got married three years ago when it became legal, before that we were living in sin and in a condo
) sometimes goes to a UCC and sometimes I go with him just for us to be together, like on Christmas eve or even on an ordinary Sunday. So I am an atheist who can stand the UCC, I guess. Maybe that alone is some form of dialogue.
February 1st, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Jesus lived with prostitutes and tax collectors? Say, my spouse works for Revenue Canada. Does that make me Christ-like
February 1st, 2009 at 8:16 pm
By Saying that, ” God PROBABLY does not exist”, implies that there is a Chance that he does.
God is Good!
The word “God” = the word “Good”
God and Good are the same word and both words mean the same thing.
The only difference between the words God & Good is “o” which is Zero, Nothing!
God is a Spirit, A Spirit, So Powerfully Good, Giving and Bursting with Love, that it Exploded to create the Massive Heavens, which extend for eternity. All,…created from Nothing!
Out of the Gazillions of Round Lights, which are seen in the Night Skies and the unseen Round Planets and Round Moons which revolve around those “Stars”, even including the non-spherical pieces which can be seen, at times, as Shooting Stars,
EARTH is the only Speck, that God placed, ever so precisely, to support the Creation of Life.
God created Good, and God created Bad! There is Good and Bad in all of us.
When people are born, they are Good and Pure. The bad is merely a Deviance from God, and it is learned, after birth!
The Spirit, “God” LIVES in each and every person. God is ALIVE, and has always been alive, in ALL that has been created.
All People feel, that God (Good), is living in their soul, in varying degrees from “Zero”, to the Amount that The Blessed Virgin Mary felt, SO, as to nurture it to her Son, “ Jesus Christ “, who gave his Life out of Pure Love for all People.
Jesus professed that he was the Son of God, and indeed he was!
But he was no more God’s Son than each and every one of God’s Creations! The only difference is the fact that God chose Mary and Jesus, and gave them the Ultimate Wisdom and Good Spirit to teach and spread the WORD of God, from their Inspiration.
Jesus died so that the Sins of the People of the world would be taken away!
YET, the sins keep going on! The Bad is manifesting over the Good.
Jesus died merely because, he PROFESSED to be the Son of God, in essence God Himself. It was because of his Proclamation that he was crucified! His life was TAKEN from him, by Bad people, so as to stop the the Manifestation of God’s Goodness throughout the world!
God is a Spirit, the Spirit of GOODNESS, which is in all People.
God is not a White Haired, White Bearded Man, wearing a White Robe, walking with a Staff down a hill with a flock of Sheep.
God is YOU!
You the people are God!
God created Man so that God’s Spirit could Live!
God will come Again, when he see’s that we are worthy to receive him.
But we better get Snappin’. Because the Judgment is VERY Near. THIS YEAR !!
More to come………….Lot’s More LOL
February 1st, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Can someone prove to me that love exists.
February 1st, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Leann, what you are preaching is quite wrong. In post #64 you say: “If we were supposed to live our lives however we please than there are going to be alot more pregnant single mothers, more std’s, and more AIDS. Our world will just become focused on living for ourselves instead of helping each other.”
What you are implying, without saying it, is that we need religion (and possibly the stick of Hell and the carrot of Heaven) to be good, moral people. In fact, religion is NOT the source of morality or even necessary to live a moral life.
First of all, if religion were necessary for morality, then our prisons would be filled with agnostics and atheists, who, laching any religion, would be incapable of living morally, and would necessarily commit crimes. In point of fact, atheists have LOWER crime rates that the rest of the population.
You mention STDs. It has been shown over and over that the “red states” in the US, where people are far more religious (and conservative republican) have a higher rate of STDs, teen pregnancies and a higher crime rate than the “blue states” where people are far less religious.
Did you know that countries like Norway, where an estimated 75-85% of the population is atheist, have far LOWER crime rates than religious countries like the USA?
Morality does NOT come from the Bible either. If you go by the Bible, slavery is all right, including selling your own daughter into slavery. On the other hand, where does it say in the Bible that cruelty to animals is wrong, or that you shouldn’t beat your children? Nowhere! The Bible actually encourages people to beat their children saying “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.
The Bible also tells us to kill homosexuals, and even to kill people who work on Sunday.
So don’t pretend that religion is necessary for morality.
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:34 am
Hey Messenger: That was very entertaining. Can I have the movie rights?
February 2nd, 2009 at 2:07 pm
To atheists on this site who decry the possibility of rational dialogue with (in this case) members of the United Church of Canada, I would invite you to consider the possibility of non-theism or non-realism – the idea that one can have a religious orientation without positing the existence of a supernatural being “out there.” I also invite you to check out Gretta Vosper’s response to David Giuliano (moderator of the United Church). Vosper is a minister in the United Church who thinks both positions in this ad campaign are pointless distractions from more pressing issues. You video of her delivering her response here: http://www.warmplace.ca or grad a copy of her press release here: *link to untrusted document removed*
February 2nd, 2009 at 3:02 pm
If someone see one of the United Church’s “There probably is a God” ads, let me know where it is. I’m interred in seeing it.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:32 pm
The ad can be seen across the top of wondercafe.ca
It was in the G&M on the weekend, too, I am told.
February 2nd, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Heh, listening to Justin on the CBC right now. Sounds good.
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:16 pm
w00t! Got in as the last caller
A well done show, with only a couple of lunatics.
February 2nd, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Ciekawy blog, dodalem go do ulubionych, bede tu napewno wpadal czesciej
February 3rd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I think it is important that we all respect one another. I have been a member of the untied church since my birth. Personally I do not know what I believe anymore. I like the version from the united church. They said there is probably a god, leaving room for discussion. By not saying for sure that there is a god they are not pushing thier views the same way that the athiest group is by saying there is NO god. I think people need to remain open, or atleast respectful, of others views. Either way both ads say something of validity that I think we should all pay attention to. If these ads are now left alone the debate will die and peole can live their lives as they want. “Now stop worrying and enjoy life.”
February 4th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Well, let’s try this again.
If the Freethought Association of Canada ad is to encourage people to engage each other in constructive, non-zero-sum game dialogue, then everything is copacetic.
If people are there to prove something, are in their “Young Turk” stage, or don’t believe in what all of our mothers taught us, that tis better to play *well with* others than to play *with* others, that is unfortunate.
I hope both ads will encourage people to create their own ads, exploring their own imaginations and, like has been happening in Wondercafe all the time, to examine universe in all its wonder.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
wondercafeguest wrote:
Hello all, I did try to post a comment on atheistbus.ca …The very witty counter slogan was something like this: [witty?]
“The bad news is that atheists exist [albeit not in the strict sense of the term]. The good news is that one day they will have to face God.” …
I prefer to say: THE FACT IS: ATHEISTS DO EXIST. THE GOOD NEWS IS: GOD’S LOVE INCLUDES ATHEISTS.
February 18th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Hey all — Just posted on my blog http://www.dkwrites.blogspot.com/
a ‘continuation of the discussion’ Justin Trottier called for in his Ottawa Citizen editorial today (feb. 18). Full disclosure: I’m a Christian who would have welcomed the ads on Ottawa buses.
Just one question, and I really hope I haven’t missed this somewhere, but where did the text of these ads come from?
Frankly, I’m confused by it and would love to hear — preferably from someone on the inside of the campaign — where it came from. Why, how, etc., please!