Angry Calls and Newspaper Queries: The Atheist Bus Campaign Rolls Along
Campaign Updates January 23rd, 2009I wish I had more time to post entries as we receive ongoing press in the Canadian Atheist Bus Campaign, but as President of the sponsoring organization, I wanted to share a short report on some of the attention we’ve been getting. So here are a few highlights from one of the busier days this week. It started, appropriately enough, with an odd phone call. I was asked
Are you the atheist?
After some hesitation over how to approach an answer, I simply gave my name and addressed my title with the Freethought Association of Canada. After a first awkward question where he asked how the bus campaign was
meant to make me feel better
he proceeded to inquire about our motives. I stated we wished to introduce our perspective into an ongoing discussion on the role of faith in a secular society and sincerely hoped it would create fruitful dialogue. That he took as an invitation to embark on a one on one debate with me at that very moment. Fair enough, but I was technically at work.
His questions showed a depressingly low lack of understanding of secularism. He couldn’t figure out the difference between having an open public space like the side of a bus on which every group – religious or not – could publish their ads, and having the government actually endorse a single worldview through publicly funded catholic schools or opening prayer at legislative meetings. He kept repeating that
atheists just want to get rid of god everywhere
When he said that atheists should just keep in their place and happily fund public god-invoking ceremonies, I told him, rather passionately, that the entire point of this campaign was to make it clear that atheists are a large percentage of organized individuals and that we are no longer accepting marginalization from public debates concerning the role of religion and secularism in a democratic society. Realizing he had hit a nerve, he promptly pulled out the “atheists are all angry about trivial things” card to which I kindly reminded him that he had called me for a half hour debate on this “trivial matter”.
In short, it quickly became clear he wished to engage in a never-ending diatribe. I had to end this, which I hope I did respectfully by letting him know that I would have to be going and that his next question would have to be the last one.
Fortunately, I ended up ending that call just in time to pick one up from the Toronto Star. It ended up being a rather challenging interview for Saturday’s Ideas section. I was forced to think quickly about such issues as how the different political climates in the UK and Canada vis a vis religious tolerance would effect the dynamics of these atheist bus campaigns, and whether my skepticism and scientific inquiry was another brand of ideology. I hope I said something coherent. While there’s nothing so annoying as reading back your own inelegant words quoted in the paper and knowing that’s not what you said, it’s much worse to realize that that inelegance is precisely what you said.
Later in the day I was able to field a call from a reporter with the National Post (which we’ve been debating already), as well as one from the Corriere Canadese, an Italian language paper I have not yet come across. These interviews were more laid back, although I recall one question regarding my concern that parents would feel threatened by an atheistic message that might undermine their ability to effectively brainwash, sorry indoctrinate, sorry educate, yes educate, their children in their faith tradition. I really have no apologies coming to parents who feel that years of focused efforts to instill their version of reality on their vulnerable children – sometimes including isolation from other points of view and outright lies – will be overturned by the sheer knowledge that atheists exist and such an offensive statement as
There’s probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life.
If your faith is that easily shaken it hardly deserves my respect in the first place. Plus, with a stance you might term a “child-centred libertarian,” I believe children are not owned by parents. They should not be forced to undergo anything that so permanently marks them that they are unable to make a free and informed decision or change later in life.





January 23rd, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Justin,
Do you have children?
If so or plan to, who do YOU think they belong to?
Do you think Teaching them morals will permanently mark them?
What do you think they should be taught or not taught?
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:38 pm
*applauds*
Very well said. Particularly the last part. To me forcing religion on your children is abuse.
Choosing to follow a religion should be a choice made by an individual. It’s really quite sad how much religion is forced into people’s heads. It’s brain washing, and why it’s not viewed that way is beyond me. Is society really that pathetic, that we have to believe in a god, with no proof that a god actually exists?
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Mike, if you haven’t noticed, morals do not come from religion, actually, have you think bout how immoral religion is? burning of all non-believers in hell for eternity for example.
morals can be taught without lies.
January 24th, 2009 at 4:50 am
Testing comment system, don’t mind me.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
The difference between science and religion is that when 50 scientists show up to a scientific conference, each promoting their own slightly (or vastly) different theory, all of them accept that only one theory will be best supported by evidence, and all are eager to find out which it is.
If 50 religious leaders show up to a religious conference, each promoting their own slightly (or vastly) different conjecture, each of them accepts (in the absence of evidence) that “they” are right, and all show “tolerance” (mostly) for the rest.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
I sense some theists feel their beliefs are being threatened by this campaign. The intention is to publicize our beliefs in a non offensive way, exactly the same as relgious groups do. We are not angry until our rights as non believers are threatened by relgious dogma in the public square. We have lived more or less quietly with this for many years. I have friends and family who are relgious and we have mutual respect for each other. I see no reason why this cannot be carried foward in society as a whole. Close to 25% of Canadians (35% under 25) claim to be atheist. The numbers grow each year. Our views are not going to be ignored any longer.
January 24th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
I didn’t see any mention in the Star Today
, Maybe it will be in the paper tomorrow
I am not sure I like this rating system, many will just use it to bash opinions they don’t like, or with little thought.
January 24th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
There were a few ‘letters to the editor’ in the National Post today. Some dimwit wrote that the polls show 85% of Canadians believing in the concept of a god. I believe (scientifically, of course) that this person pulled said figure out of their ass. I hope that people reading his letter will do what I did, namely, check the facts. A cursory look revealed, as Kevin pointed out, and an article in the Toronto Star confirmed, the figure is more like 25% (35% under the age of 25) who identify as being atheist.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Agree, rating system doesn’t really mean or do anything. I won’t be responding to the trolls anymore. Their arguments and posts are ignorant (unintelligent) and should just be moderated off this site.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Perhaps a system like the CBC comments format which basically asks you to recommend a comment. Then you can sort commetns by most recommended…will give a much better idea of how much support an idea gets.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
To the mike that just wrote about the figures in the National Post…You cannot be the same mike that has been trolling us for a number of days…I suggest a name change to avoid confusion.
January 24th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle.
The other is as though everything is a miracle." –A. Einstein
January 24th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Comments may disappear/show up on and off over the next hour while I do a little bit of upgrading. All new comments posted will be appended to the comments previously posted that might not be showing up atm.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:16 pm
This is how I see this.
Being brought up as a catholic, had its benefits. It gave me meaning throughout those years and it also gave me a structure to follow. Meaning I didn't just go out on the streets and do whatever.
With that structure in mind, I am able to make a proper decision and even argument in terms of is being catholic for me or not. Also, is religion needed in society, at least for long term survival?
To comment on the first call you got. That person who called you is so into his beliefs, that he has become delusional. He would probably use violence to justify his beliefs are correct, assuming the right buttons were pressed to set him off.
I have seen this almost happen with my own parents.
"atheists just want to get rid of god everywhere"
Let's get one thing straight, atheists want to get rid of god and Catholics and the other religions want to create a "cult".
Who says that your religion is right? Who says religion is needed in society?
January 24th, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Heya Rich. No, I’m not that Mike. I’ve added my last name to alleviate any confusion. I’m the Mike that donated!
January 25th, 2009 at 2:40 am
Response to Hal #9, I also have been getting tired of responding to the same arguments over and over, but it can be tricky to distinguish between sincere posters, and those who just want to cause trouble.
Mike quoting the bible has been really tiresome, I have read it….once is enough for me…I don’t need to hear it again and it really, really, absolutely does not help to bring up some random quote.
I don’t think any rating system is necesary, I don’t judge posts by popular support
January 25th, 2009 at 3:20 am
Good to have you on board Mike Dyck
January 25th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
I just hope this “atheist” publicity campaign will show up in Montreal eventually. It is about time people remember that we live in a secular society and that there are a lot of non-believers out there (in Québec, it is maybe a majority) that views should not be shut up by the loud cries of a minority of religious zealots.
January 25th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
You don’t seem to be very open to discussion or debate on here. You guys are as bad as the Church – I notice you keep deleting my comments ??? That’s censorship. What gives ?
January 25th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Woops – my apologies – I see the comments are back. I think this campaign is great – it will get people talking and discussing and searching for truth. Too many people believe without questioning. Questioning is important. It will lead to answers and to the ultimate truth. The fact that you are willing to spend so much money on placing these banners on busses shows that you are driven by this quest also – how important it is to question these things. To search. To learn everything. To live fully. Bravo.
January 25th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
“A flea to the extent that it is in God ranks above the highest angel in his own right. Thus, in God, all things are equal and are God Himself.” Meister Eckhart.
“If I had a God I could understand, I would no longer consider him God’. So, if you understand anything of Him, that is not He; by understanding anything of Him you fall into misunderstanding, and from this misunderstanding you fall into brutishness, for whatever in creatures is uncomprehending is brutish. So, if you don’t want to become brutish, understand nothing of God the unutterable.” St Augustine.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:14 am
I think that from the above article that there is a lot more ignorance of atheism than atheists seem to have of religion. It’s pretty sad. I would also like to point out that as an atheist I get really frustrated when you try to talk to people about religion or their beliefs, and they always seem to just brush off whatever you have to say with a smug little smile. Are not my beliefs as valid as someone elses?
January 26th, 2009 at 5:14 am
Mr. Offgrid — So, let me get this straight: If you understand something, then you don’t understand it?
See, this is the kind of gibberish that religions expect rational people to swallow. Everyone should question dogmas that involve miracles, angels, spirits, and claims without evidence.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
Harvard.
I question anything that someone says they understand completely. You say you understand completely that there is no god. I question that. For all those that say they completely understand that there is a god – I question that also. God and this universe is a mystery. The minute you stop exploring and questioning – you are dead. I am on the side of those mystics who question the nature of the universe. Athiest or a-theist, If you claim to know all – then you know absolutely nothing. But either way – you too are probably divine. So don’t worry about it. Enjoy life.
January 26th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Mike,
I myself have two girls (5 and 3). I teach that everyone has feelings and needs to be accorded respect.
I certainly would not want my kids going to Catholic School where they would be taught dubious values. What would these christians teach my children?
What could an organization, headed by an ex-Hitler youth member who has the temerity to reinstate a Holocaust denying bishop, teach my children?
These same catholics recieve goverment funding! They should more appropriately be listed as a hate group.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
Off-grid…I didn’t see Harvard’s remark as someone who was stating that he completely understands that there is no god. Most atheists here understand that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I would submit that most everyone here is a proponent of scientific inquiry. That inquiry has certainly not answered all the questions that we have and we cannot scientifically rule out the existance of a Prime mover. However, it would be a logical fallacy to infer that there is a Prime Mover due to the fact that we cannot disprove his existence.
I believe this was the intent of Harvard’s post….and if we admit that Religious groups defend themselves with that same logical fallacy…then the word gibberish applies. However, I don’t think that the term ‘gibberish’ was necessarily directed at you.
January 26th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
Hal @ #9: Amen, Brudda.
Sometimes you feel like you’re playing Holy Whack-a-mole with these people. You put a huge amount of time and effort into explaining why you feel a certain way, clearing up some oft’ quoted piece of propaganda, providing links to websites with clear explanations and examples, etc. and just when you begin to think your position couldn’t be any clearer they’ll come out with some trite dismissal (like “there are no atheists in foxholes”) showing that everything you’ve said was a total waste of time.
We often get accused of being hateful and strident but I think it’s really just a natural reaction, borne of frustration, to the willful ignorance that so many people exhibit.
January 26th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I see the rating system is back to the way it was. Really doesn’t do anything. Those religious fanatics have all day to click and at the moment, there are more of them than us but then again, how many of them are intelligent enough to turn a computer on?
I am very excited about this campaign and can’t wait to see Professor Richard Dawkins on March 2 in East Lansing Michigan. Wouldn’t it be great if he were to be present in Toronto for the first bus!
January 26th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
Hello Mr. Off-Grid.
While that kind of nonsense may impress young students, it doesn’t help foster the understanding of anything. Last I heard, you need to have one or two beliefs before you can talk reasonably about belief systems.
For example, I don’t know for sure that you lack confidence in any position, but I sure do believe it!
Cheers.
January 27th, 2009 at 1:16 am
Those T-shirts look pretty cool
I want one, a bit expensive but I guess that the cost is half donation.
Might spread the word more if I could buy more though…T-shirts are like walking bus adds.
January 27th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
Richie,
I lack all of the confidence in the world in all of my beliefs, this is why I continue to search. I am sure you are at peace. You are a very lucky and happy man.
January 27th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Offgrid – I guess all that anyone can ask another to do is question one’s own beliefs.
For one to have absolute confidence in his or her own belief can only result in the end of free inquiry.
Your approach is to be admired..as it goes way beyond what most people are willing to subject themselves to.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
I’ve a lot of time for Prof. Richard Dawkins. However, I’m interested in the use of the word ‘probably’ in the bus slogan. I understand that it had to be used in London for ‘accuracy in advertizing’ reasons (you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist, so you can’t say so). If it’s going to be the same in Canada, then I question calling this the ‘atheist’ campaign, agnostic maybe?
January 27th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Sussex, I partly agree with you,
I wish they would say there is almost certainly no god as that IMHO is a more accurate description of atheistic belief. If I get a T-Shirt I will probably cross out the “probably” with a permanent marker.
However, most atheists, me included, accept that you can’t prove god doesn’t exist, so technically you could say that in all probability he probably doesn’t exist.
The probably in this case, is supposed to mean “the probability of god existing is so absolutely, ridiculously low that normally in any but the most scientific of situations we would not distinguish it with certainty.
Really, I wish it would say “there is almost certainly no god” but I fully understand keeping the original message from the U.K. campaign, as a way of raising a sort of “brand awareness”.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/01/27/no-god.html
This on CBC website…. Calgary to be next city….
January 27th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
Brand awareness is one of the goal in my books for totally accepting the slogan.
The probability that a god exists is:
1/infinity ….. or as close to zero that you can get….
January 27th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
After viewing this YouTube video, I wish I had a whole lot more money for this campaign!!!! Come on, there must be a rich supporter out there that could really boost this to as many cities as possible!
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=mWJQ6vlzEts&e
How does this video make you feel???
January 28th, 2009 at 2:39 am
That’s a pretty awful video. Just the same, go bug Mr. Ham. The rich supporters would be wasting their money on *this* religion, I mean -ism, which requires just as much brainwashing to survive. What do you use for a reasoning system anyway? Some guy named Ken Ham does something bad, so you go beat your dog, or what?
January 28th, 2009 at 3:33 am
Unfortunately, most religious parents do the same to their children by indoctrination. Or by sending them to Sunday School and separate school system…
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=KY8iPJwztys
January 28th, 2009 at 4:37 am
As much as I like the campaign, I’m somewhat saddened that it is being carried by a group using the ‘AtheistBus.ca’ as its brand. The message is only partially about atheism, but reading the posts one could arrive at the conclusion that that is all it is about.
Non-believers are not all atheists, some are agnostics and many simply don’t know what to believe as perhaps they are unwilling or unable to engage their belief system. What they do likely know is that they would reject both atheism and traditional religion if it is forced on them.
The power of the slogan is in the second sentence, ‘Now stop worrying and enjoy your life’. Don’t make this a debate over the existence or not of a supreme entity; make it about celebrating our existence.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:52 am
By the way, what ever happened to the article in The Star? Wasn’t it supposed to appear in last Saturday’s Ideas section?
January 28th, 2009 at 4:58 am
The evidence of science is all over the place. It doesn’t take much work to see that there are no gods required for life to evolve on earth. It is so obvious but it does take effort to learn about science, biology, chemistry, physics, evolution, natural selection, anthropology, etc….
NO GOD REQUIRED SO STOP WASTING YOUR LIFE!
January 28th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
You apparently have not studied Darwinian evolution, its just a convenient “crane” as Dawkins called it. Now evolution right and proper that’s different. If you actually studied *that* instead of Darwinism, you would see that its “meaning” is a moving target. 1 star me again, Hal. You appear to be an adherent of “Logical Positivism”, without knowing it. That fizzled 50 years ago.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Er, I meant “studied evolution proper in detail”. Anyway, you clearly lack the philosophical training or education to be allowed to use all-caps text without caveat.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
I don’t really see what you are getting at Jeff…
I would just like to point out that Dawkins called evolution a crane as opposed to a “skyhook” which had no support from the ground (evidence), You kind of took him out of context there…
January 28th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
Well the “crane” is that Darwinian evolution (as opposed to the current theory which I would argue conforms with principals of scientific realism as opposed to logical positivism) despite lying at the boundary between science and pseudo science within the philosophy of science, nonetheless allows one to progress beyond the epistemological issues of ad hominem argument and argument from authority to begin the journey of thinking for oneself advancing through the various stages of scientific thought, such as those taught at grade school (basic scientific method), progressing to something akin to logicial positivism in high-school, then something like scientific realism in university. The unqualified slogans of this movement purport to suggest that scientific understanding ends at grade school, and that your “worries” end if you ignore the studies of the post-graduate philosophers.
The “science” that Hal invokes is but the crane, not the fully constructed philosophy present in our secular society at this time.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Also, the context for Dawkin’s “crane” is from the Ultimate 747 gambit quote, not the sky-hook quote.
January 28th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Specifically:
“The most ingenious and powerful crane so far discovered is Darwinian evolution by natural selection”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Boeing_747_gambit
January 28th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Why not spend the money trying to help out Mother Earth. She could use it. Spend your time and money learning about alternative Energy like Solar, wind and geothermal. All of this discussion is a complete waste of time. Whatever you believe get on with the joy of living. I think spending $22,000 on this banner is a crime against humanity. Lets find common ground and start helping each other rather than arguing and fighting. This is all very immature. Time to grow up.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
The crane concept is Dennett’s: http://www.tjurunga.com/thinking/papers/darwin.html
It is quite a successful analogy for clarifying the difference between science and creationism.
“The unqualified slogans of this movement purport to suggest that scientific understanding ends at grade school, and that your “worries” end if you ignore the studies of the post-graduate philosophers.”
Wow! All that from “There’s probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life”. What amazing insight and superior powers of perception you must have to deduce so much from such a simple statement!
Or maybe you’re just a pompous windbag.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
NO GOD REQUIRED SO STOP WASTING YOUR LIFE!
Capitals used just like the slogan for the buses.
Philosophy is one area I have not bothered with.
Ah, we have more trolls on here.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Wow a string of 5 1 star ratings for my posts. Does this mean I can expect Justin Trottier at my kid’s school ready for reeducation? Say, before you head out, send me the ISBN number for the textbook you plan to use. Thanks in advance.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Offgrid, the fact that this campaign managed to raise over $20,000 in 1 week indicates that there are a large group of people who felt it was a worthwhile endeavor. No one is forcing anybody to donate. Maybe you should think we should give our money to the Catholic church or one of those other obscenely wealthy institutions that do so much good around the world (like preaching about the evils of birth control). Personally, I think the pope has enought gold-encrusted and bejeweled dresses for any man.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Sussex, Forums such as this often turn into religious debates…this debating is pretty much what the campaign aims to cause. Agnostics are tough to pin a definiton on, I would posit that if your not sure god exists that you don’t believe he exists? Like you can’t be sure a teapot isn’t floating around in orbit of the earth? Like I said, the variation on what people call agnotisism is immense.
I really think the goal of this campaign is to inspire debate, and raise awareness of an Atheistic worldview, not to just put people at ease about the question of god’s existence. I take the slogan to mean that just because there is no god you don’t have to worry, just enjoy life for what it is. Or alternatively, There is no god, so don’t worry about that religious rubbish and just enjoy your life.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Offgrid,
On a more reasonable note… I shouldn’t get so snarky. I just take it kind of personally when someone implies I should or shouldn’t support some cause when they have no idea what my experience has been or what other causes I may also support.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Offgrid, I have found that a big challenge in the enviromental movement is that a lot of people expect “god will save us”. They don’t care about the earth, after all, the sooner we die the sooner we get to heaven, and some also view enviromental devastation as a sign of the coming apocalypse.
Basically I think this campaign would do good for the enviroment, people who doubt the existence of a god are more likely to realise we have to fix these problems ourselves. If you think this is the only life you have, you will make the most of it.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:01 pm
p.s. I don’t like the post rating system, people should read the post for themselves, don’t really on the star popularity contest….
January 28th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
sorry I meant to say “rely” on the star popularity contest
January 28th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
The fact that the campaign raised $20,000 before an examination of the Ontario Human Rights code, just means they haven’t read it;
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/en/resources/Policies/PolicyCreedAccomodEN?page=PolicyCreedAccomodEN-CREED1_.html
A creed can be defined even in the absence of a belief in deities, and it further distinguishes agnostic from atheist, specifically. Thus legally, it appears that it is possible for atheists to discriminate against agnostics, who are specifically protected by the code (sounds silly, but hang on)
The key element is the “imposition of their creed”, thus Justin’s “If your faith is so easily challenged” and such demonstrate imposition against protected creeds (agnosticism being one of them), by the organization, not the sign.
What troll provides citations to law & philosophy and to the major speakers of their creed?
January 28th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Absolutely nothing wrong with the ad. It has been accepted for use by the TTC.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Jeff K,
Is there a point to all this?
January 28th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
I don’t see the point either. The ad is perfect.
Hope lots of money comes in now so the campaign can spread to other cities and other posters!
February 3rd, 2009 at 2:26 pm
The Church has been successful because it provided a place to satisfy a need to socialize. In my view this is proof that of evolution, because as a primate we collaborate a bit better than other primates. We find trust in others to compliment what we can do. So 1+1+1+1+1= a number far greater than 5. This is not co-operation of equals this is collaboration of unequals. Collaboration does not scale. I figure 8% (1/12) of any population are too selfish for our own good. They are not evil, they are good for the species in times of famine, but they think every day is a famine. They are often heard to say “what is in for me”or “I took it because I was owed”. When they manipulate, punish and bully their way into a leadership position evil type things happen. I avoid them, because they are not enjoyable to have around. They don’t bring joy, like people I call my friends who have an evolutionary collaborative nature. If we can create places where the mystery of our evolutionary make up that creates new trusting friendships seems like a puzzle their will be wealth and quality of life creation.